Mental Health Across Genders and Generations

Anne (Prologue) 0:00

I hope that you nurture these children, these teenagers, especially those who are studying right now in maritime schools. Please understand that this is a very delicate issue, and please do not turn a blind eye. Talk to them, especially once they start going on board, because, see, we will not have seafarers if we do not have students who are studying to become seafarers. This has only become a domino effect from the start, because we didn't have these things before. We did not recognise them before. So now we are just coming up with solutions, because the problems have already grown. But in order to mitigate these problems, I hope from now on, we will get to live to see the day where we do not need to have these solutions anymore, because the problem will be eliminated. So, I believe it has to start from the home. I believe we have to start acknowledging that these things exist.

Marville 01:05

Welcome to the very first episode of Maritime Matters, the podcast where we navigate the crucial issues facing the maritime industry. I’m your host, Marville—seafarer, union advocate, and a passionate worker for maritime welfare.

Before we dive in, I want to provide a content warning. Today, we’ll be discussing mental health, and this conversation will touch on sensitive topics such as suicide, bullying, sexual harassment, and the challenges seafarers face. Please take care when listening, and reach out to someone if you need support.

Our pilot episode, titled Mental Health between Genders and Generations, will explore an essential and often overlooked perspective on mental health in the maritime industry. This conversation will be viewed through multiple lenses—generational, gender, and cultural—allowing us to unpack and better understand the complexities involved.

Joining me today are two young seafarers who bring unique perspectives shaped by their experiences, both as members of the younger generations of seafarers and as representatives of different genders. We’ll also touch on the youth structures like the AMOSUP Youth and Women Networks and the ITF Philippines Youth Network that support transport workers and seafarers in the country. These networks represent strides in the right direction, but there is still room for better protection, engagement, and membership.

To kickstart the conversation, I’ll ask our guests to introduce themselves and share a bit about their background in the maritime industry. Since we’re delving into a topic that remains delicate and, frankly, stigmatised in our field, I completely understand if either of you prefers to use a pseudonym for privacy. The floor is yours—anyone can go ahead and start.

Anne 03:13

Okay, I'll go ahead. So, let's just call me Anne, and I have been sailing for more than a decade, and extensively, like worldwide. I have started from the bottom most rank as a cadet until I have become a deck officer.

And for the most part, while I have been sailing, I have experienced contracts, both as the only girl on board, and also I have sailed on board vessels where I have worked with few or several ladies as well.

People's experiences would really vary from vessel to vessel. So from my side, during those contracts when I was the only female on board, of course, unnecessary attention would sometimes, not always, really concentrate on you, like they would be more observant on how you are working or carrying yourself on board, versus if you have fellow female seafarers working on board, like probably two of you or three of you or more, which makes it quite a little bit better, I would say. Because not with the attention, but at least you have someone to talk to, and with regards to work, usually, if you are the only female on board, of course, because of that unwanted or unnecessary attention, they would usually also tend to comment on how you are working.

Marville 04:56

The number one thing, I would say, is that I think the most common root cause of mental health issues is a feeling of isolation. And when you're like, the only female on board, it can cause psychological isolation in some sort of way, right? You do not have any way or any person to connect to in terms of like gender. But yeah, it's still, as you mentioned, it's a case-by-case basis. It depends upon the people that you work with, really. So now we go to Elijah.

Elijah 05:31

Hi, hi, everyone. Hi, Miss Anne. Hi, Marville. Hi, to all our listeners. I am Elijah. I'm a seafarer. Also, I started my seafaring career in 2013, so probably more than a decade ago already.

I am a deck officer, and whenever I'm on a vacation, I do other stuff, like writing. This is where I was able to write extensively about mental health, because I'm a very huge advocate of mental health awareness, especially in the maritime industry. So, I was a former writer of the Seafarer Asia magazine, and I've written also some pieces regarding mental health in the Philippine Daily Inquirer, in its Youngblood section. And I have a book, a literature book. It's a composition of essays and poems, and it's entitled Resurgence: Poems and Essays about Depression and Healing, where I wrote about my personal experience in dealing with mental health issues, and how I was able to recover from that.

Marville 06:44

This is something where at least we can dig deeper into your experiences. You have more than a decade of experience in the industry, both sea-based and land-based, and you mentioned that you're really in touch with like your mental health and your experiences regarding mental health, so maybe we can also ask you about that later on.

Since we have jumped over to the topic of mental health, and this is also our main topic for today, I'm going to ask each of you, Anne and Elijah, to share a bit on mental health. The question is, if you're going to define what mental health is for you personally, what is it for you? What is mental health for you?

Anne 07:32

During the time when I was a cadet or rating, I have experienced bullying and harassment. I did not even identify it well. I was just like: “Ah, maybe this is just a normal habit or a normal manner of approach of my fellow seafarers on board.” I had really no idea that it was actually something that was affecting me psychologically. I had no idea that there's this thing called mental health, where I should, I should have been taking care of myself on the inside, not just physically, like with my mind, with the way I am handling and dealing with things. It was only later, when with my later contracts, I started sailing with a better bunch of people. And then I realised, oh, so during that time, I actually had… I am just glad that I didn't spiral into depression or something. But with bullying and discrimination and such, I wasn't able to identify it because I didn't know that mental health was a thing that was supposed to be nurtured. So, it's like taking care of yourself, not just physically, but emotionally and mentally, and having that sense of awareness that you know that you deserve to be treated just as good as you are treating other people. So mental health is something like more of who you are inside, how you're taking care of yourself, not just physically, but mentally, probably spiritually also, and psychologically.

Marville 09:12

Thank you, Anne. So, in a nutshell, you're saying that mental health is a component of holistic self-care that you should be… that it is supposed to be necessary for everyone, right? To be able to cope with stress or to be able to live normally. And actually, most of us, I think, in the maritime industry, this topic has been like a new thing for everyone. So, I get it when people… when people are not really into it, especially the older generations. We'll talk about it later on. Thank you, Anne. And let's go to Elijah. What do you think mental health is for you, Elijah?

Elijah 09:56

So for me, I agree with Miss Anne. It's a very holistic thing to look at. But I also want to focus on this one particular factor of mental health, that when you see it that way, it can be easily explained to people. It can be easily digested by people. Because before, in the earlier years of my seafaring career, just like Miss Anne, I had no idea what mental health was. It's abstract in my mind. But when I had my fair share of mental health issues, I came to terms with the signs of it.

So, I believe that mental health is a scientific problem and can be given solutions through scientific interventions as well. Say, for example, how we take care of ourselves, how we take care of our neurotransmitters, say, our dopamine or whatever. I'm not really an expert on this one. I don't, I don't want to talk about this extensively, but as I understand what we do with ourselves on board – the way we overwork, you know, the lack of rest, the overthinking – all these bad habits could lead up to depleting our neurotransmitters and the chemicals in our body, but eventually it affects us mentally. So, a lot of people don't see it that way. A lot of people see mental health issues as something as abstract, as an emotion, you know, but they don't really see it as scientific as it should be seen. That is probably why the maritime industry has been lagging for a very long time, because the approach is more on the awareness side and not that proactive. You know, not that scientific. So, for me, mental health is a scientific issue that should be given a scientific solution.

Marville 11:59

Thank you for also dabbling into the technicalities of mental health, and you've mentioned, that it's a scientific thing. And I've come across in a resource before that mental health is not just purely psychological, in a sense, because it has four aspects. As they said, it has a biological aspect to it, so you can actually inherit a mental health condition from your ancestors or from your parents. And then there's also a social aspect to it, as Anne has mentioned; of course, there's a feeling of isolation. And if you are socially isolated, it can also exacerbate into a condition where you feel mental health issues, or you are subjected to mental health conditions. And then, which Anne also touched on a bit a while ago, is the spiritual aspect. It has a spiritual aspect to it, especially for Filipinos, right, or for Asians. We are very religious beings. We believe in the Divine, no matter how we perceive that to be, and we believe in the concept of faith. So sometimes, if we don't, if we can't see faith or if we can't touch on hope, sometimes it can lead to mental health conditions. So, it is really a scientific thing, a hormonal imbalance, and all the four aspects that were mentioned, they really contribute to mental health.

Marville 13:25

Let's have Elijah to go first now for this question. The question is a bit personal, so you can share whatever it is that you're comfortable sharing. Can you share your worst day on board a ship? What was that like, and how did you cope with it?

Elijah 13:44

Um, worst day or worst days? Just kidding. I do remember this one traumatic contract that I had when I was a cadet, where I sailed with a very notorious captain. He was very, I don't know, he was backwards thinking. His attitude was nowhere near humanitarian. I couldn't say any good thing about that Captain. I could say he was a good seafarer, but as a leader and as a management officer, he was just all over the place, and that easily spiralled to all of the crew, especially to us starting cadets. He was very much a bully. He was harassing us verbally, and he would go to the extent of involving our parents with every issue, and it has just gotten too personal that during that contract. The 10 months that I spent on board felt like a decade already. So, for me, that was just the worst contract, not a day, because it's just multiple days. That's just the worst contract I've ever had, and I don't want it to happen to me anymore, and luckily, that's the last time that I had those kinds of experiences.

Marville 15:06

Thank you for sharing that, Elijah. You mentioned you were a cadet, and this was a captain, so there was really a power imbalance to it. It's like, you know, a free pass for harassment as well, because of the hierarchy in the maritime industry.

This is just a random question that I’ll be giving you, something I thought of while you were sharing. Do you think the hierarchy or the hierarchical system in the maritime industry contributes to mental health issues?

Elijah 15:42

Yes, I do believe that it is a particular contributor. But if you look at it very closely, it also looks into the factor of culture. Because Filipinos, I do have a tool that I can … wait, let me check. There's a country comparison tool that I'm looking at, and in the profile of Filipinos, we are very hierarchical. Unlike western countries, we look up to higher positions, like we put them on a pedestal and stuff like that.

Now, if we do that because of our culture, it easily increases the power distance, and with that power distance, there's a lot of space for bullying and harassment to occur, right? Unlike other cultures, say, for example, we work on board, but we don't really see western people behave as Filipino people, because they have a different culture. They have a different approach with regards to how they look up to authorities and stuff like this. That's why it's not just the hierarchical position, because it works right? It's the way to organise things on board. But it's also very cultural as well. So, yeah, that's how I look at it. The problem is not the positions, but the problem is the culture that is embedded in every seafarer.

Marville 17:10

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. It just shows how complex mental health is really. It's not just a one-off problem wherein we can just have this end-all, be-all solution, and then, oops, we don't have a problem now with mental health in the industry. So, it is a really, really complex problem that we have to navigate very delicately. Thank you for sharing, Elijah. We’ll have Anne answer the same question. What was your worst day on board like and can you share that and how you coped with it?

Anne 17:43

I actually have quite a similar experience to Elijah, but this happened when I was already an officer. Like I said earlier, my time, when I started sailing, this mental health issue was not very familiar. So, by the time that I was already well into my career, only later on, I realise, and I have learned that it's actually a thing to be focused on.

So, there was this one captain. He’s also a captain. The problems usually, or the issues usually arise when it's the junior versus the senior, most of the time. Even if you're going to look at some stories or if you're going to listen to other seafarers, the most common ground is usually with the juniors or the subordinates versus the seniors.

So, with regards to this guy, I had not just a worst day. It was more like months. I had to go through every single day thinking if I would commit a mistake. It went to such lengths that I actually lost weight on board due to severe stress and anxiety. It’s undiagnosed, but I was actually talking to one of my doctor friends during those times, and it was Covid season that time also. So, imagine how the stress and anxiety doubled because you're also worrying about your family back home. Every single day that I was sailing with this captain until the time that I signed off, it was mental torture for me, because I would wake up and then I would already start thinking, what mistake will I be doing again today? For him to reprimand me, for him to talk so badly about me. There were no good things actually coming out of his mouth - not a single thank you, not a single good morning or good afternoon, not a single thing of praise or words of appreciation for the things that I had done.

And like I said, it was so severe that I actually lost weight on board. I have compared photos of myself before I joined, and then when I disembarked, and that was the vessel that actually stressed me out a lot for six months. I think we had sailed for four months on it, but those four months really felt like, I don't know, an eternity, not just a year or something, because of how the things conspired. Probably later we'll be delving into them.

But he was also the kind of person who would turn the tables against you instead of, you know, trying to lift you up because you are an officer, you want to be promoted, you want to learn more. He was not that kind of guy. He was literally looking down on who I was, especially since I was also a woman, and at the time, I think there was only two of us on board, and I was the only female officer. The other lady that I was working with was a rating, so I was the one who was actually also supporting her and helping her get through that tough time, but she was from a different department, so we only had a few days to interact with each other. And I also had very limited time for rest, because, imagine, you have to work overtime. Uh, usually we would spend around two hours at most, maximum, it's supposed to be like that. But with that guy, I was obliged to stand in his office waiting for approval of whatever job I have accomplished and brought to his table, and then I would be standing there waiting and waiting until he would say this is okay. So, like, I would end my overtime at 3 pm, but I had to report to him, and then everything would be fixed and good for him by 6 pm, so the only time that I would be able to rest was probably one or two hours only. So yeah, it was a lot. And I really, really did not have the happiest days during that time.

Marville 22:14

I know it's very difficult to relive those kinds of moments, really the worst days in our lives, like in whatever circumstance or aspect that was. So, thank you for sharing that.

Marville 22:33

I've attended this maritime research forum where they presented mental health conditions for Filipino seafarers, and the findings of that research is that they said the most prone to mental health conditions are seafarers in the age bracket of 30 to 39 and the second most prone are the seafarers who are aged 20 to 29. So, these are younger seafarers.

And then somebody from the crowd, a captain, I think, if I remember correctly, and who is also part of a shipping company, went to the centre of the event hall. And then he mentioned into the microphone that he thinks that younger seafarers are snowflakes, that we are quote-unquote, building or producing seafarers who are emotionally inept.

So, he just went on and on saying that during his time, there was no concept of mental health. There were no issues with mental health, so and so forth. I do have my reactions on that, but since I'm not a speaker here, I'm going to pass it on to you guys. What is your reaction on that? Maybe Anne can go first. Do you really think younger seafarers are snowflakes?

Anne 24:08

Ah, well, that's quite weird. Probably he had some issues of his own also. That's why he was able to say those things.

But I would say, since the dawn, I think since these issues about mental health have started to arise, it started to become recognised. People are still unwilling to accept that it's supposed to be a thing, like it's supposed to be focused on.

Generally, when we say ‘snowflake’, it's like you're accusing a whole generation of bringing up another generation to be like that. It's not. Since it's actually like a domino effect. So, once you start bringing up the concept of mental health, trying to advocate for it, trying to implement programmes and advocating for this, it's when people start also realising, we should have been doing this and not that. And also our eyes and ears are open. The younger generations have become more aware. So they actually are more self-aware compared to our generation. But it's like some, though, like some, not all, have started also using it as an excuse. So, maybe those things that he said come from that experience, because I've also encountered a few people who are using mental health as an excuse. They are undiagnosed and such, and they would just say ‘I am depressed, I'm anxious and all, and they would not really work properly. Well, that is a different story, but it should not be invalidated. So to say that our generation are snowflakes; I think that's it's too much to generalise, because there are mental health issues that are really serious that need to be addressed, and we don't have to turn a blind eye to these things. Because nowadays with the advent of social media, with the Internet and all, it's so easy to access, and when you're on board and isolated, these things could also easily mess up your mind. So, it's a thing. I hope that whoever that captain is, that he is listening. I hope he also picks up something from this podcast. You know, it's a thing, sir, it's a thing. Yeah, it's real. It's real.

Marville 26:48

It happens. It happens to anyone of us really, even him. He can actually have a mental health condition at some point in his life. You mentioned that the younger generation is really a generation of connection with social media and all. Being in an isolated place like a ship, it can also be a detriment for a generation which longs for connection, for connectivity.

And you also mentioned that we are a generation. I'm including myself. I think I’m young. I'm still part of the youth, according to UNESCO, so I'm going to include myself there.

So, we are also a generation that is more in touch with our emotions. That can also be a reason. That's why sometimes, you know, we feel this because we really accept that we feel this way, and you mentioned a while ago, and there are people who really abuse the concept of mental health, and that's the sad reality of it. It actually debunks whatever movement we are pushing for towards mental health in the maritime industry, if some people are abusing it. So, thank you for that. And then we'll have Elijah answer the same question.

Elijah 28:22

Yeah, so that is a very interesting question, and I’d really like to delve into that. But first I want to unpack the intergenerational concept of mental health. Firstly, I listened to this podcast where I learned from a sociologist, Mr Jayeel Cornello, that generations are actually shaped by common experiences, by shared experiences. And the problem with Filipinos is that we think that generations of western people, like Gen Z and Gen Y, are the same generations that we should apply in the Philippines. But, you know, anyway, I digress.

In the context of generations in the seafaring industry, I believe that there's this generation without social media, and the generation with social media. You know, those are two different generations. There's a generation where the inspections on board the ship are not that rigorous, the security is not that rigid, and this generation today where everything is just so advanced in ports, and the inspections are just set at a very high level. Those are two different generations of seafarers.

You have to give it to the older generation, though, they were really tough. You know, they were really strong people. They survived at a time when there was no Internet connection. They could not talk to their wives, to their husbands for a very long time. They had to deal with snail mail and stuff like this. That was very difficult, and they powered through it. But we also have to give it to the younger generations, because we do not share that experience with them. Our experience is different right now because we have the Internet where we can get a lot of sources of insecurities. We can get real-time news, and that's just not good news. Sometimes you get real-time bad news, and basically a lot of different concepts are coming through, you know? So, information is a double-edged sword. You can use it to our advantage and to our disadvantage as well. Because of this huge source of information, which is the Internet and social media, I believe it has shaped a generation of what they would call snowflakes. But in my understanding and in agreement with what you have said, we are just emotionally aware of ourselves. We're just self-aware, and we just know a lot of things, and sometimes that could be detrimental to our mental health as well. So, I do believe that there is a different perspective on mental health that is shaped by two different generations, not even two. Maybe there is a third generation in between the two of us. But anyway, who is really at fault here? You know, I mean, no one. We have different perspectives on these things. That's why we need to have solid messaging from our regulatory body, which is the IMO and how we should deal with mental health, so we can speak the same language, and we can put into one perspective how mental health really plays into the bigger concept, which is the maritime industry and not just the generations of seafarers.

Marville 31:51

Thank you, Elijah. There's a lot to unpack with your answer, your comments. Actually, you mentioned automation, digitisation coming into place, like quicker turnarounds in port. Before, I experienced like two weeks in a port. Right now, most people in a bulk ship would be happy to just stay like three to five days in a port. If you think about like pure car carriers, container ships, and even cruise ships, they stay in ports like less than a day, sometimes even hours. So quicker turnarounds in port mean lesser chances of shore leave or shore liberties, which can also be a detriment to someone's mental health. If they’re a social being, they would like to meet people, other people, but they're stuck with the 20 plus people that they have on board the ship for a few months, right? So that can contribute to someone's mental health.

And you also mentioned social media. It's a good thing. Social media is really a controversial thing right now in the maritime industry. This social media connectivity can be a make-or-break thing, right? Because there's this 24/7 and real-time connection now with people you love ashore, and they can share with you problems at home, and you will feel helpless too. You'll feel helpless because you can’t contribute because you're far away. So that can also contribute to your mental health degradation.

There are a lot of inspections in ports and compliance items as well. So, yeah, really, the maritime industry changed a lot, and when we talk about intergenerationality, sometimes it's not just about the people, it's about the environment as well that these people are living in.

SFX 33:56

Music.

Marville 33:59

I forgot to share what my worst day was on board a ship.

There are two worst days in my life, I would say, when I was a seafarer. Number one was when my grandmother died, and I couldn't go home. And the number two was when it was my first time as a second officer. I had some slip-ups. And the captain, what he did was he called all the crew in the officer's lounge, and he made everyone watch while I was being reprimanded. Even the ratings were there, the ratings who were looking up to me. So, it was really the worst day, because I was really like being put down there in front of everyone, like I was being shot in the face.

But after that situation, the good thing was the way that I did cope with it was… the galley department, the chief cook and messman, they were really close to me. I isolated myself. So, what they did was they kept knocking on my door every day just to make me go to the crew mess hall or crew lounge to just mingle with people. Up until such time, I regained normalcy, and I regained my self-esteem. And when the new captain arrived, I actually had a pretty good time, so my work performance had gone up. I was a really effective officer then, so I don't know, it might probably be because it was my first few months as a second officer. That was probably why I had some slip-ups. And, of course, I was so tense with this captain. You know, same as you, Anne. It's like an impending sense of doom whenever you're dealing this person. And it just contributes to that kind of situation where you will really make mistakes, because you're so afraid of making mistakes that you will eventually make a mistake.

So that that was my form of like bullying in some sort of way. That story is actually the springboard to my next question, wherein we saw through the ISWAN helplines that abuse, bullying, harassment, discrimination and violence (ABHDV) have contributed to mental health cases in both female and male seafarers.

Can you share stories, like if you have personal stories on this one, on harassment? And, after sharing that story, do you agree that those kinds of situations when you or somebody experiences abuse, bullying, discrimination or violence can really contribute to a degradation of mental health of somebody?

Maybe we can have Elijah answer first.

Elijah 37:00

I think it's not a question of does it really affect it. It really does affect the mental health of a person. But the extent, the gravity of it would be the issue here. Because I believe that when someone is bullying you, the effect is not latent. It is felt right away, and the damage to your mental health is also immediate. It's very dangerous on board the vessel, where people are deprived of a lot of things, and people are in solitude in their cabins. It can definitely lead up to more morbid situations that I don't want to mention anymore, so I believe that we should also pay attention as an industry to how we should be able to mitigate the issues of harassment, violence, sexual abuse and all the other things that were included in your question, because I cannot memorise them anymore, but yes, I believe that it's a huge factor, and the gravity and the extent of it is immediate.

Marville 38:17

Yeah, I am with you on that, actually.

And before I throw this question off to Anne, I’d just like to say that on the ISWAN helplines, it's the second most frequent problem category for females. So, the first one is mental health, and the second one is ABHDV. We coined it as ABHDV – abuse, bullying, harassment, discrimination and violence. So, this issue is more prominent for female seafarers. How do you react to it? And do you think that it does contribute to mental health issues for female seafarers as well?

Anne 39:00

Yeah, I think probably it's because of the industry, although we are already accepting women working in the industry, like on board vessels. But still, as individuals, there is still quite the population of those guys working on board who are probably not as open and understanding with regards to having to work with women on board. So that's probably one of the reasons why these things still happen.

So, I would like to share one of these… one of the stories… Sorry, scratch that. I'd like to share a very personal story that happened to me. Not a lot of people have actually heard of this one. So, there were several instances where I have experienced sexual harassment on board. But during that time, our company still did not have a helpline, but I would say I'm still one of the lucky ones, because this did not escalate into something worse than what it was. So, I had a fellow crew member. He was a bosun, and at the time, I was a cadet, and I had no idea that something like that would happen to me, because the guy was just basically one of the normal people that you work with on board. He was nice. He was working very diligently. He was okay with the other people that he was working with, and the senior officers were also quite okay with him. He had generally a very good relationship with everyone on board. Then, there was this one time when it was my birthday, because during that time, 12-month contracts for cadets were still a thing. Now, it's not, so I got to experience my birthday on board.

Generally, when you're a cadet on board, everybody loves you, right? Like they would take good care of you and stuff. They would give you stuff from the galley. Or they would bring you stuff when they come from shore leave. Or they would buy you stuff and give it to you from the bond store. Not always, but there would be times. So, me being one of the only girls… being one of the girls, because that time there were two of us. I was a deck cadet, and then I had a fellow girl. She was an engine cadet.

So, this bosun, since I was a deck cadet, I would usually be tailing after him at work and all. He had this habit of giving chocolate to everyone. I was just thinking that this was a normal part of his being the nice guy. And then when my birthday came up, he specifically told me, “Hey, Anne, later after your work, maybe you could…” – that was lunch time, I remember it vividly – he said “after work, when you've had your lunch and all, you could just go to my cabin, and then I have a little gift for you.” That's what he said, non-verbatim, but, you get the idea. So, me being innocent and all, I had… I really had no idea what was going to happen. So, I was just expecting he was probably going to give me chocolates again, because it's my birthday and all, because everyone was greeting me ‘happy birthday’ at the time. And then I went to his cabin, because people just came and went into his cabin anyway. So, me, thinking nothing serious would happen. So, I just, you know, like merrily went in on my way. I was actually wearing shorts at the time. So, after that incident, you know, I also decided that later on, I would not be wearing shorts. But it's not like the vulgar shorts that you would see in movies or something. It's just like above the knee, and made of a pretty thick material, but still, you know. So, I went there, and he was there, and he was sitting on the couch, which was against the window, the porthole. And then he told me, “Come in, come in.” So, I just went in. And then he stood up and the way that we were standing in his cabin, because you know how cute cabins are on board. He was standing with his back to the door, and I was in the middle of the cabin. And then he greeted me ‘happy birthday’ and proceeded to show me the bar of chocolate. So now looking back, I'm thinking like I was just like, you know, a very innocent kid who had no idea what was going on in the world. And then I said, “Thank you, Bos.” And then he handed me the chocolate. So when I was about to grab the chocolate, he wrapped me in a hug. But, you know, I had no idea about consent at the time as well, so I actually froze right then and there. And, then, when he let go of me, he looked at me. And then he wanted… I clearly saw that he was aiming to kiss me, and oh my God, I really, really thought at the time that I was going to die because I couldn't breathe. I was frozen. I didn't know what to do. My hands were stuck to my side. I wasn't even trying to push him away, but at that moment when he was trying to move in, somehow I once again felt my hands, and then I just instinctively pushed him away, and then just bolted right out of his cabin and ran straight down to the upper deck, because it was almost one o'clock, so people will again be going out. And then I saw because at that time, I was sailing with a fellow neighbour, you know, fortunately for me, that guy, we live in the same area. But I didn't know him originally, so we just got to learn from each other, when we were on board, that we were neighbours. When I found him, he was the pump man at the time. When I found him, I immediately grabbed him to one side, because I was quite trusting that he would not jeopardize me or anything. I told him what happened. And, I said, “So this bosun. I never knew. I never expected”, and all of that. And, so what he did… This did not escalate to the captain, fortunately, but he went to look for the fitter. He talked to the fitter, because both of them were also petty officers, and they took the matters into their own hands, which, fortunately for me, ended in the bosun not attempting anything again after that incident.

However, I sailed with the same bosun when I became an AB. And, you know, things like this have already embedded something like… I would say it was traumatic for me, because that time, I only had two people behind me who were, fortunately, very supportive enough and who protected me. But, at the time, when I was an AB, I was expecting that he would have changed. Well, jokes on me, because he did not. But again, I would say that during that time, I was also quite blessed, because the captain that we sailed with was a great guy. He was very supportive of his crew. He was listening to his crew. So, this other incident involving the same person on a different timeline happened when I was working on deck again, it was an afternoon, and I was already an AB at the time. So, I really expected the bosun to, you know, have already changed his ways or something. And I also thought that, facing my fear, which was him… I also thought that I would be able to make it. But it was quite a funny and awkward and scary encounter at the same time, because he caught me at a moment when I was working alone, and nobody was around. I was there carrying… I think we were doing maintenance on deck, because I clearly remember I was carrying a bucket with tools. And then, in the other hand, I was carrying a can of paint. When he found me, he called me. So, of course, being, you know, the subordinate, you would also definitely approach your superior. And then he was saying something, of course I couldn't hear because vessel vibration and wind and all. So I had to come closer, like probably half an arm's length in front of him, when he, again, suddenly grabbed me and hugged me, and then put his mouth very close to my ear, and then really said that “I’ve missed you”.

And it was not anymore fear, but disgust. But, thankfully, you know, because I was holding tools in one hand and paint in the other, I was able to, you know, with the weight of the things that I was carrying, use it to push him away from me, again.

So, probably the time interval was two years after the first one. And what I did, I dropped everything and then went straight up to the bridge, because I knew that at that time frame, the captain would be at the bridge for the noon report. So, I ran. I ran up, and then excused myself to the second officer, telling him that I needed urgently to talk to the captain. And I talked to the captain and really told him everything, like the first story, the back story and then what actually happened a few minutes from then. So, it was good that the captain, immediately, you know, brought it upon himself to find a solution. Later on, I realised that I should not have run to him but went to the chief mate instead. But, you know, in cases like this where you experience nearly the same trauma, it would be instinct kicking in. So, I'm just thankful that I sailed with great people on board at the time who were ready to protect me, but, I can only imagine for those women who did not have the same set of colleagues, or probably the same kinds of people working with them on board. So, this is probably why it's one of the things that we encounter, which is still a problem, because… unless and until, we will have fellow crew members who are actually willing to work with women, who are accepting, like genuinely accepting, and who would treat us like fellow co-workers and nothing else.

So, wow, that's a lot to share. But yeah, that was for my part. But fortunately, you know, nowadays, I'm just thankful that there are avenues and helplines that could address issues like these. Unless and until we would have easy access to this, I think, oh my goodness, the number of people, not just women, you know, probably we would also have the same or similar stories, or even worse, coming from all types of genders who are working on board.

I didn't have, actually, anyone to report it to that time. We still didn't have this reporting line or something that was internal, I mean, from the company itself, where you could air that. I can't… If it's possible, I would not sail with this guy again because of the things that happened. But thankfully, now we have that. So, I hope that there are no more incidents similar to that one, because it's really unnerving and very traumatic.

Marville 51:24

Yeah, actually, it just shows that, at the very least, the maritime industry is evolving in a way that we are able to curb at least a few things that happened before. And now we have like interventions in place to help fellow seafarers, regardless of gender and generation, right?

Well, upon hearing your story, I also saw there's a context there of like an impact to you mentally, because you said you’d never wear shorts ever on board a ship. So, there was a psychological consequence into it, by being part of this or being subjected to this form of abuse or harassment.

I'm really in awe that you are still sailing despite these things. Can I ask you what's your motivation? Or how did you really cope with it? Because normally, when people undergo such traumatic experiences, and as per your statement a while ago, disgusting experience, normally they would just rather not sail again. So, what was your motivation for you to go back on board a ship?

Anne 52:40

Probably it's because I also had goals that I wanted to achieve, and even if it was traumatic, I was just thankful that there were people behind me who were ready to support me. I think that it was one of the most important things when you are on board, especially if you encounter bullying, harassment, discrimination and such. Because if, for example, you are experiencing similar occurrences, and then you have no one to run to, you have no one to talk to. It will definitely, probably, put a stop to your career at the worst. I would consider myself lucky, because at the time when I was asking for help, at least I knew how to ask for help. I didn't know about consent. I didn't know that this was already harassment. I just knew that something was wrong. I didn't know that there was a word for it. I just knew that I needed to ask for help, because this is not normal. It's not a normal behaviour for a person. With a young mind, sailing and all, with very limited experience, knowing that something is wrong and then having to ask for help… when I received the help that I needed, that was probably one of the reasons why it also didn't really change my perception about the maritime industry as a whole, so that was probably like a little chip off the border. But I'm just thankful that it really didn't destroy, you know, the things that I wanted to achieve. I'm just thankful that there are people behind me who are ready to help me, and as for me, so I could definitely say that these are not isolated cases, because they happen, and they could even, you know, repeat.

But I’m just, how should I put it… Probably it also stems from the fact that I have a little bit of a headstrong personality. You know, as a person. People that I know would definitely say that I am quite assertive. I am headstrong. So, as a person, I have this kind of attitude, so thatdefinitely helped, even with the trauma. I can easily talk about it now, but at the time, I did not have the strength, so it took some time. I just had to compose myself but seeing that the help that I also asked for was immediately given, and there were solutions, even if they were just band-aid solutions, at least they were solutions. And, then later, in the long run, having worked in the company and seeing a few changes… They're not really drastic, but at least there were changes. So, it did not hinder my dreams of becoming successful in the maritime industry. So, it was a challenge. Well, actually, it helped me become who I am today. But, you know, it was more of a reactive kind of thing, because, as I have mentioned, now there are some things now that I don't anymore do, I don’t anymore wear, because of the things that have caused me trauma from that time long ago.

Marville 56:08

Yeah, I completely agree with you on that. Well, while we celebrate that you became stronger because of that situation… It doesn't have to happen, right? No one should feel unsafe at work. Everyone should be able to perform naturally and normally, without feeling unsafe, without feeling like there's something that's going to bite you, without fear that someone’s going to grab you or lunge at you, right? So, again, I'd like to thank you, Anne, for sharing that. At least when female seafarers do get to hear this, number one, they would be more vigilant with the people the people in their surroundings, the people that surround them. And number two is that they would know that these things do happen and they can protect themselves.

SFX 56:56

Music.

Marville 57:00

Now, since you mentioned a bit of like… you have steered your answer into like a forward-looking concept. You've mentioned that your company has evolved and has put into place certain interventions to prevent that from happening again. Now my last question for both of you would be: what are the support systems and initiatives that are currently in place that helps seafarers deal with mental health issues and with abuse, bullying and harassment in the workplace? What are the things that you… or the best practices amongst your shipping companies, with welfare organisations that you know of and with the union, with ITF, for example, and AMOSUP and PSU? Can you cite some?

And probably the next part of that question is, what do you think can be done to improve that kind of support?

Anne 58:03

Yeah. I think nowadays, since we are all more connected through the Internet, with the advent of social media and such, I think it's a good initiative for companies that they have also developed helplines. I mean, like internally for companies, where it's not just for the ladies, actually, it's for all seafarers who might, or probably would encounter bullying, harassment, discrimination and such, where they can easily and anonymously report these things straight to the company, without even going through their superiors. And what I have appreciated until recently, it's also the shipping industry as a whole, like having ISWAN, having ITF, where we can easily report issues on board with regards to mental health. I also am aware that there are some Seamen’s clubs like Stella Maris, which provides their services and are very accessible 24/7. Even if we are on board, we don't need to go ashore and wait for the next port like they are already easily accessible, or we can contact them through the Internet and through social media. So, I think it's quite a revolution compared to what our predecessors and the previous generations have experienced, where they cannot easily express how they feel. They cannot easily ask for help. This is one thing that is good, what I think is a positive change for the seafaring industry. But, then since mental health and the advocacy, the issues surrounding it are quite relatively new with regards to discussions. Among us, seafarers, especially, I think we are getting there, but the progress is slow because from the grassroots, which is, of course, the seafarers ourselves, we are not, probably still not, as ready yet to express everything. So, I believe it will start with the home. It will start especially for the newer generation of seafarers, with the families who are having issues with communication. So, like I know a few where their problems actually start at home, not at sea, where the families are not communicating very well. They don't talk to each other that much. They are not that expressive. I hope for those parents out there, who have their sons and daughters who are studying to become marine deck officers or marine engineers, I hope you understand that the children that you have right now will not be the same men and women once they come home after their first vessel. I would definitely attest to that. I have seen and encountered a lot of stories where those people who have completed their first contract definitely have said that they have… their lives have changed after that first vessel. So, from the families, from those kids, from those young ones who are starting off, I hope that you nurture these children, these teenagers, especially those who are studying right now in maritime schools. Please understand that this is a very delicate issue, and please do not turn a blind eye. Talk to them, especially once they start going on board, because, see, we will not have seafarers if we do not have students who are studying to become seafarers. This has only become a domino effect from the start, because we didn't have these things before. We didn’t recognise them before. So, now, we are just coming up with solutions, because the problems have already grown. But, in order to mitigate these problems, I hope from now on, we will get to live to see the day when we do not need to have these solutions anymore, because the problem will be eliminated. So, I believe it has to start from the home. I believe we have to start acknowledging that these things exist, and for those seafarers now who are on board, we really need to have to start accepting these instances, this phenomenon, and we have to recognise that it is a problem that we really have to address. It's not like… Okay, we have helplines, but if the seafarers themselves do not recognise mental health issues as a real problem, then it will remain a problem until such time that probably some magic occurs, that it will be totally wiped out. It has to come from us entirely, because if we have all these helplines, all these organisations working 24/7, but if we ourselves are unwilling to acknowledge it, to accept it and to utilise it, then it's of no use. So, we will get there. It will take time, but we will get there.

Marville 1:03:25

Wow. So you have mentioned a lot of things, actually, like the more practical ones are helplines, port assistances and, of course, the function of the union. You mentioned ITF, and you've also dabbled on like family, how the family members or the loved ones ashore play a role in terms of the upkeep of mental health. They do actually have a huge part in it. So, yeah, you're right in mentioning that when they send their… especially the cadets, on their new contracts, that they should keep on communicating with them. And if that cadet answers to them, “I'm okay.” It's better for the family to be more curious about the work that they're doing, just to go past beyond that “I'm okay” statement. Be more curious. “Okay, in what way?”, “What have you done there?”, “Share to us.” Be more, be more, what is it… be more aggressive in asking your seafarers how they are. Because sometimes, you know… Yeah, be more proactive in that way. And then, it's also a responsibility of the seafarers, as you mentioned, that it needs to start from us to recognise that mental health is a thing, and it's not just a luxury. It's a necessity. It's part of our holistic wellbeing, as you have mentioned in the first parts of our episode, Anne. So, yeah, it comes to a full circle. Thank you. Thank you, Anne, for sharing that. And we'll have Elijah answer this last question.

Elijah 1:05:02

Yeah, for me, I'm very thankful that I am in a very supportive and very open shipping company right now in terms of addressing the issues of mental health. Shout out to Marlow Navigation. They've been very, very proactive in handling cases of seafarers.

I am happy to see that the industry has already progressed. There are a lot of shipping companies who are not dismissing seafarers by the virtue of having a mental health issue right away. They're giving time for their seafarers to heal, recuperate, address this issue professionally, and then still have the employment that they work hard for.

It's a very huge step, because for a very long time, the industry was stigmatising… this stigma on mental health. And it's easy to dismiss seafarers that are diagnosed with mental health issues, because like for them, why not, right? Seafarers are contractual workers, and they're easily disposable, but because there are companies right now, like what I am involved in right now, who are very proactive, and through their support with mental health awareness, we are getting closer to where we should be in terms of this discussion.

Another thing is that I am happy to see that there are a lot of helplines, not just ISWAN, but there are a lot of other helplines that are addressing the issue and helping the seafarers 24/7 for free. You know, we don't get this a lot, especially during the earlier years of my seafaring career. We didn’t have this one, but right now, we do have a lot of options to run to.

Another thing is I hope that the industry would look at it and institutionalise or put this into legislation, because without a backbone, this will just remain a discussion. Without including this in the maritime labour convention, without the inclusion of the discussion of mental health in our insurances, you know, how do seafarers protect themselves when they are diagnosed with mental health issues when, in fact, it is not a part of their insurances, and it is not a part of the legislation? Where do they go to… Where do they go to legislatively, in terms of asking for help? It's very difficult right now because there's a lot of loopholes, and I do hope that one day we will see this in black and white and fine print, that seafarers are protected and are given a proper way to address this issue, professional and scientific, and whatever way is possible to help the seafarers who are undergoing depression. But I've seen progress, significant progress from where I was and to where I am right now. So I'm very thankful and happy.

Marville 1:08:05

Wow, that was a really nice list of things that, you know, that have been there… that are there for seafarers nowadays. And of course, there are things that we have to look forward to, as you've mentioned, like legislation, which is a very good thing to remember that, of course, without legislation in place, really, it’s not going to be… these things, these incentives or these initiatives, are not going to be for everyone, unless there's like a written law that says this should be the standard, this welfare provision should be given to everyone. Unless that is put into black and white, any initiative or any programme will only be for those people who avail it. So thank you, Elijah, for saying that.

Just to add up on the things that you both have mentioned, I think in terms of support in like welfare and mental health, I would say that, similar to Anne, I think it's more of a challenge for our seafarers to become… to really take pride in their job and become stakeholders. So, thank you, to the both of you. You have mentioned a lot of things, but we still have a lot of seafarers who will just let themselves be silent.

They have undergone certain issues. They know of things on how to make this industry better, but we need you to speak up and to be… to take part in it. Be a stakeholder in these kinds of improvements and changes, right?

Like with AMOSUP, we have AMOSUP Women Network and Youth Network, and they do conduct a lot of activities, and they have tabletop discussions as well, where we can voice out, as seafarers, what our qualms are, what our suggestions are to make this industry better. And, of course, we have APSU as well, another union that does similar things. And of course, ITF, right.

You mentioned, Elijah, a while ago legislation. MARINA actually calls upon a lot of people when they're having discussions on how to implement certain STCW revisions. So be part of that. Be part of the changes that come into your industry, so that everything that is being done in the industry can be seafarer-centric. Changes can only be for the seafarer, if we are there during the discussions. Seafarers should be in the room where it happens, and that's the only time we can really exact change as seafarers.

And for family members, we do have organisations like Seafaring Family International or SeaFam International and WCSF, Women Championing Seafarer Families. You can also take part in their activities.

And for female seafarers, I think Anne, you are a member of WIMAPhil, right? So Women In Maritime Philippines, so they can also join the discussions of WIMAPhil and their events.

There's a lot of things, a lot of events and initiatives that are being done in the industry. And we, seafarers, need to be proactive, to take part, to be stakeholders and to be in the room where it happens, where those changes happen.

And I just like to, like recapitulate everything that has been discussed. We talked about gender differences, intergenerational differences, but it's not a means to separate generations and genders. It's a means… a call to synergise. And it's a call to let everyone be heard, despite differences, despite differences in opinions and notions. It's a means to synergise, and to harmonise and to be able to really exact change, equitable and just change.

So again, I would like to thank Anne and Elijah for being here, for those insightful discussions that we had and for sharing a part of yourselves. I know it's quite difficult to relive the past, especially those kinds of experiences, but I am really grateful that you were able to share it, and hopefully this discussion will be able to inspire and motivate those who are going to hear this podcast that we have. Again, thank you, Elijah and Anne! Do you have any parting words? We do have a few minutes left here.

Anne 1:12:35

I’d just like to thank you for this chance to share.

I’d just like to say that for anyone who might be experiencing issues on board, the first step is to always, always seek help. Do not be afraid to seek help. You might not be able to receive it on board, but if you know, if you try to reach out to other people, not just to your fellow crew members, you could also reach out to your friends. You could reach out to your families. We have helplines that are readily available. Do not be afraid just because something is happening to you or among you or between you and someone on board. Do not let it escalate to such a point where the trauma will eventually, you know, make something out of yourself, not in a good way, and will definitely affect your quality of work and life on board. So, don't be afraid to seek help. It will always be there for you.

And thank you very much, Marvs, for giving us a chance to also share our experiences and insights. We hope that this could also help our fellow seafarers and those who are aspiring to start their careers at sea.

Marville 1:13:54

Thank you Anne, thank you Anna. And Elijah, I think we have less than a minute.

Elijah 1:13:59

So yes, thank you so much. This is such a wonderful time. It's a wonderful discussion. Nice to share this podcast with you, the two of you. Thank you so much, Anne and Marvs.

Marville 1:14:11

So that wraps up our inaugural episode of Maritime Matters. We’ve had an enlightening discussion with Elijah and Anne about the vital issue of mental health among seafarers, exploring it through the lenses of both gender and generational perspectives.

This podcast is brought to you by the ITF Storytelling Campaign, an initiative dedicated to capturing the real-life stories of our unsung heroes at sea. We hope today’s conversation has provided new insights and underscored the importance of robust mental health support.

Before we sign off, I’d like to invite you to take a moment for a brief breathing exercise. Wherever you are, take a deep breath in through your nose… hold it for a moment… and now slowly exhale through your mouth. Let go of any tension in your shoulders as you breathe out. Let’s do that once more: deep breath in… hold… and exhale slowly. Remember, taking just a few moments to breathe mindfully can help you manage stress and stay grounded, no matter where you are.

Whether you’re dealing with isolation, bullying or any other challenge, reaching out for help is a sign of strength, not weakness. Don’t hesitate to contact support services like the ITF and ISWAN helplines, which are available 24/7 to assist you. We also encourage you to engage with youth structures and networks in your own organisations like AMOSUP Youth and Women Networks, ITF Philippines Youth Network, and other similar organisations.

Until next time, stay safe, stay strong, and prioritise your mental health. Fair winds and following seas. This is Marvs, and we’re now signing off. Thank you.

SFX 1:16:23

Music.